Difference between revisions of "Talk:Artificial Academy 2/Advanced Tips"

Latest revision as of 22:01, 7 December 2014

Open discussion

Taken from the wiki page where it doesn't belong. Keep discussions in the talk pages, please. Remember to sign your post and indent with colon. --hmoeller ^{[ Talk - Contribs ]} 05:25, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

@ Chicory, I am not sure you are checking e-mail box or the forum so I put it here. I really hope we can discuss this in the forum so Admins can listen. To answer your e-mail, there are no Like and Dislike options in v10. Only Love and Hate ratio exist. Turn on Love x10 ratio and Hate x0 ratio, and 'everyone in H mood' so you can accelerate the progress. Yes, you can use your savegame editor to make a complete orgy class to skip the progress. It may be closer to your class you are playing.

This revised guide is intended to give players a bigger picture so they can play by their own style with open decisions. They can play progressive, or use editors to skip the progress, and they may using other editor programs from the one you are using.

Another answer; JG2ChrData is not a good tool for editing relationship points. But most importantly, it is not suggestible for Wiki to guide people to use specific program if alternatives exist. And to the argument, there are many people visiting Wiki who are not using HF patch and or JG2ChrData inside of it. No, we don't have official rules you requested because we can discuss in the forum anytime if this kind of need arises.

People already know about this kind of class mode(especially in /hgg/), and they play it with their own various ways. Wiki is for general information. But if you so eagerly want to narrow a public guide to your way, I guess it is best to bring an open discussion at the forum. And note that I am busy as you are; if that was your point. --Anononfire, 01:29, 23 September 2014

@Anononfire. It is true that I have not checked my mailbox often but when I did I saw no emails from either of you. I would be happy to discuss this in a forum but I do not know where that is or how to start a discussion. Perhaps you can give me some directions.

You mentioned that there are better editors. I would appreciate some guidance on what they are and how they can be obtained.

I agree that the guide should be a guide to essentials so that people can play their own game. That is what I was working towards. Instead of mentioning a specific editor, I could say to adjust love points with the editor of your choice. I see you did something like that. I apologize that my time is limited. Basically when I have some free time, such as now, I take another whack at it and make improvements. This may not be quick enough for publication and I could understand that, if that is the case.

When I open up Config additions, it says "Love/Like Ratio Modifier" and "Dislike/Hate Ratio Modifier." There are 6 all together, one each for "NPC-NPC," "PC-NPC" and "NPC-PC." Perhaps you have a somewhat different translation but I am sure it is the same thing. I have tried using this with values from 0 to 10 - it made things worse than not using it all. I end up having to use the editor more than usual. I have not found the setting of "Everyone in H mood" to be helpful. In fact it tends to bypass the "interactions and relationship developments" you mention. If you slowly have each character become the lover of every other character then you do use the "interactions and relationship development" in AA2 a lot and you do not need the "everyone in H mode" option. .

The differences in our experiences with the Love - Hate buttons may be because we are using it on much different situations. I think you have something else in mind than what I am doing. It looks like you are doing a quick and easy simultaneous public sex of some sort, while I am at the other end of the spectrum trying to establish something like a sustainable group marriage of some sort. I am going to give your way a try just to see what the differences are. You may want to do the same the other way around.

I had the idea that perhaps the best way to present this in the Wiki is to present both ends of the spectrum: the quick-and-easy gangbang and the long-to-accomplish group marriage. That way people would be able to make their own variations between the two poles, just as there are many different colors between the ends of a light spectrum. I have made an edit to try that. Look it over and see what you think.

I began this when I read about the 3P mode and I asked myself, if I had 4 or 5 players - all lovers to each other - would extend it to something like a 4P or a 5P. I found that by doing that, you could create a group that would freely have H among its members without jealousy or cheating accusations - and that it could be sustained like a group marriage. So I set out to see what basic elements would cause that and what would sustain it. That is more than a just particular class, and could be used in the many ways. Much as you allude to when you say "so they can play by their own style with open decisions. They can play progressive, or use editors to skip the progress."

Best, --Chicory, 04:55, 24 September 2014

@ Chicory Ok, so you didn't receive any of my responses. First, as you agreed in your first e-mail, you must establish valid information before listing at wiki. We normally skip this procedure because we use right sources for confirmed information or generic info that have been proven by many hands. But since you are differentiating your classroom from others by self-claimed discoveries, you must prove them by testaments.

I will quote what you wrote in your first e-mail:

"Some seem to feel this is just really harem in another form. It is not that. It is a group sex situation that seems to be intended by Illusion as a special mode. It has its own special script lines and activities. So part of the wiki is to point this out to the naysayers who have tried to take it down etc. It has take me some time to figure out how to activate and keep it active so the wiki has been a bit wordy and subjective while I am getting it down to the basics. Perhaps I should have simply waited until I had it all sorted out before I put it in the wiki, but I had the idea that others would try it and contribute or edit it."

They are not naysayers since your guide didn't prove anything of your theory. We are totally unaware of these special lines, special activities intended by Illusion as a special mode you mentioned. If you are talking about dialogues around public sex, they have been existed in AA1. I did a full test last weekend as I promised in my unread email. I exactly simulated your guide and and the result was exactly simile of our understanding since there was no 'special mode' activated or something. And yes, as you agreed, you should have wrote in the community before listing at wiki so others could try.

I will remove Orgy Class guide since it is on pending at this moment. To do the test, first you must clearly describe what is this special mode, special lines, special activities that make the game different. Second, post your savegame copy so we can analyze the details. The simulation I ran failed to prove any difference so this is the necessary part. Once we find out this special mode and make a solid ground based on it, then you can render this mode so people can try and contribute feedback. --Anononfire

@ Anononfire? Would you please sign your comment, as Hmoeller asked (see top of page). I am guessing you are Anononfire, because you quote an email I sent you. However, it would be make things easier if you signed and I didn't have to guess or deduct who this is. Would you please answer some of the questions I've asked you and a new one.

1. You mentioned there are better editors than JG2ChrData. What are they and where can they be gotten?

2. Are you in charge of what goes up here and what does not? If you aren't, then who is?

3. Where is the forum that you mentioned. Is this it?

4. The place you want me to post the data and savegame; is that here?

5. I do have a big question to ask, but it needs a setup.

(Start of setup) I started posting here because I thought the wiki was open to anyone who had something to contribute. I noticed that nothing had been written about the group sex that breaks out in AA2. So I started to post what I could discover about it, (N.B. "Discover" in this sense simply means to find out, not to make an original discovery.) Now it seems I am not following "procedure" and that there is a "we" that has to approve things because they have access to "right sources for confirmed information or generic info that have been proven by many hands." Yet these procedures are not written down anywhere and this data base of confirmed information also does not exist in a form that someone like myself could access. Which means that anything I write about regarding this, ipso facto, I have to discover by myself. (End of setup)

So my question is this: Is this a Wiki that is being run by a small group of people who have worked together and by doing so have a tacit understanding of what they want done and how to do it, and that no outsiders are welcome? If so, just say the word and I am gone.

Or is this, as i first thought, a wiki that is open to "strangers." If it is, then I would like to sort out (as my time permits) this AA2 group sex thing that everyone can see but no one has documented. I'd like to get it down to its basics and put it in a concise form for the wiki. I think that task is not an easy one and I would like to work with you to achieve that - if you are willing - because I think you have seen this from another direction than I have been taking. Thus we might be able to put something comprehensive together. But so far I have not felt very welcome. I will be willing to follow the procedure that you suggested. I just don't want to do it if it has already been doomed to failure before it starts.

By the way, a naysayer is someone who questions the validity of an assertion. It may be used negatively in a colloquial sense, but here it is not a bad or a good thing. Naysayers serve a valuable purpose of testing the validity of an assertion, and can be very helpful unless they are making it personal only trying to prove someone wrong and not willing to see another view no matter what. I have been a naysayer, and in this situation you are a naysayer. That is not meant as an insult - it is one reason why I want to work with you.

As to your test, I am sure you did it conscientiously, but we get different results so something is not the same. Either I left something out or you missed doing something. But if you are willing to work the project, we can sort that out.

Well, what do you say?

My nights have been free for the last few nights, but this is ending tonight and my time for this will be less for a bit. So please do not be offended if I don't reply right away.

Best, Chicory (talk) 07:33, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

@ Chicory

1. JG2Importer is the easiest tool editing relationship points so far. This is the link of translated one. The latest version is not translated but supports bilateral adjustments.

2-1 Yeah, it is not a tight organization. Most members are from Hongfire and those who have administration access are from there too. I was introduced by DokEnkephain from there, and recently Godlike and I received a kind of permission of revising whole AA2 sections in there. It works in that way. It's based on agreements.

2-2. After brief discussion, the general direction of this section is set to transferring information from two Japanese wikis 1,2. Their information have been turned out to be certified and universal. Additional lines are welcomed, but it is suggestible to refer to those wikis as much as possible. That makes much convincing than solely based on experience.

3. I suggest Hongfire AA2 General Discussion thread and Gameplay Discussion.

4 Do as you like. You can also upload in Mega and attach a link here.

5-1 Yes, wikis are opened to everyone. And there are also the line of mutual agreements and working together. You listed your guide on general gameplay section so I had to remove it; I guess that was all this began. You reverted it, and other guy had to move it again quoting "It doesn't belong here". You left that "I am still in testing" guide for so long and added unnecessary lines by times til became one half page of, I don't know. Note that I am not the one who removed that abundant teacher lines you added last week. The last time you reformed the guide was getting more problematic that I had to rewrite whole guide by myself.

Godlike and I are currently working on revising AA2 sections which is approved by admin Inquisitor. We both made that pervert guide from two pages along to six lines; we are doing that kind of sorting, refining, removing if necessary. That is the Wiki. No one's writing is one's property and people work together to keep it best shape for general information.

5-2 As I noted, Japanese wikis are the most convincing source that we decided to transfer from it in mutual agreements. Refer to confirmed data as much as possible. Open the script lst files by yourself if necessary to find that "special mode intended by Illusion" you mention. I eventually tried. I am angry because I promised to do a full test to you which you even didn't read, and spent Saturday free time to see the result just as expected as nothing. I am mad because this happens many time not just on wiki but in everyday life. I remember that guy who stubbornly insisted contraception items have effects in-game. He was too sure of his data based on experience. It misleads too often.

So please, provide solid references or proofs. If you are not capable, just follow Japanese wiki like we are doing. The general terms of Horny Class are much proven and simple as that already. I can post screenshots from AA1 to show its long history.

--Anononfire

@Anononfire

Thank you for the answers - very helpful. This is now making more sense and is much less confusing.

I hope you understand that I did not read your work because I never received it. Don't know why. The emails I sent you from here came to my email inbox as I directed but nothing from you. Sorry about that, I know that can be frustrating, especially if there were earlier situations that seem the same.

In any case I am not the contraceptive guy. On my side I was upset when the article I wrote was simply deleted with no mention of why. But that is now in the past.

I do not know if I will pursue this or not. I think the first thing is to read the Japanese wikis and then to try a simulation of the game you outlined, using the cheats you mentioned to see if the result is the same as mine or not. If so, then that would end it for me, as you would be correct. I will let you know the result I get, so the loop can be closed for you.

Assuming that I do not get the same result then I will contact you to verify a correct way of proceeding so that I go forward in the right way.

As I mentioned, tonight is not free and time is scarce for me for a while, but I will try to take a few min here and there, as I am now, to attend to this.

Thanks for your frank and straightforward reply.

Best, Chicory (talk) 23:24, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

@ Chicory : I guess that e-mail problem was due to that I directly replied to your address instead of sending from wiki as you did. I double checked I sent it to right address. Anyway, it seems this discussion is going to be concluded until more details get collected. I will sum down my point and make an explanation about that edit incident.

1. I couldn't find that hidden mode you mentioned which should had triggered different behavior patterns. Some dialogues may look unordinary but that is not the case. It is best to avoid mentioning that mode until actually you find it out and backbone by evidences. I mentioned that contraceptive guy because his false assumption led to misbelief of others in the forum; like mentioning the mode in e-mail led me to wrong conceptions. We cannot afford that in Wiki. But if you manage to find out something unknown to us, that will be a great discovery.

2. We don't remove lines or heavily edit without leaving changenotes. The time I had to remove your guide was because you were working on an obsolete page not knowing that the guide was moved into new section. I had to rewrite your guide last week because you suddenly started reforming and left the guide in the middle of reconstruction. Regarding the form, it is best to begins with brief introduction and explain what is the cause and effect, and then list the details later like you gave me in the email. All additional notes can be listed after the conclusion such as concerning about npc traits. The first guide you made was almost the backward. The last guide was cool but you left it incomplete.

3. The npc behavior in this game looks pretty simple. It works by numerical factors that you can adjust numbers in lst files to bring desirable effects. There are many variable changing the success rates and action priority though, the basic mechanism doesn't change much. The chain public sex is unavoidable in your given conditions. Low and lowest virtue characters will get into maximum horny stage and will seek out sex after witnessing public sex. Since they are low~lowest virtue, they will ask for public sex instead of inviting other to private area. The new public sex will arouse other npcs to do so. Low virtue with cheaty traits reduce failures to minimum. Using savegame editor or in-game cheats will just make it faster; which I don't prefer both.

If your objective is to create different way of playmode like "sustainable group marriage of some sort" you mentioned, you must detail the list of exact effects you are considering. The AI is not complicated. You can convince players by providing the logic behind of your class mechanism. That is the best way guide can be written.

Lastly, my lines also got reverted/removed by others many times. I don't like dictatorship nor playing a bad cop role. Sorry if I was looked right that. Anyway, have fun. --Anononfire

I'm xxGODLIKExx and this may be my only post on this talk page.

@ Chicory This talk between you two made me realize that the wiki needed a cheating-related page so I made one. I hope it helps. Also, just like anon said, you can also join us on hongfire.

@ Anononfire I haven't used JG2Importer. It it's as useful as you say then go ahead and add it to the new page. xxGODLIKExx

@ xxGODLIKExx Geez, you never used it? I will work on that Cheats page. It is really convenient. --Anononfire

@xxGODLIKExx Good idea on the cheat page. J L says there is a JG3Importer but I haven't been able to find it anywhere. @Anononfire I am working on an explanation of my logic. It seems reasonable that is needed for credibility before I post anything.

--Chicory (talk) 02:20, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Hint: use colon (:) to indent your posts. I.e if you are answering to a level 2 post, use ::: at the beginning of all lines you write. Of you are answering a level 6 (::::::) answer use 7 :s and so on. To sign your post, use --~~~~ or press the "Signature and Timestamp" button in the editor's toolbar (third icon from left, the pencil writing something). Thanks. --hmoeller ^{[ Talk - Contribs ]} 00:16, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

@ Anononfire and Chicory: I don't remember if this page existed for 2 or 3 weeks but since then this guide has been "pending for verification" so I really have to ask: Is this guide really necessary? It would've been useful before but with the latest patches it is FAR easier to simply design every character as a pervert and use the 0% Dislike/Hate and horniness options than to follow this complex guide. --xxGODLIKExx--

@ xxGODLIKExx: The orgy academy is not the same as just making everyone lewd etc. Having everyone lovers with everyone else is the difference and it brings about different behavior in the students - or so I have seen. This idea has been met with great suspicion, so I have taken it upon myself to conduct tests to show this. The tests compare various combinations of cheats and things from the patches - to the "orgy" arrangement. There are about 12 - 14 tests that involve playing the game for a week or more (in game days) with a benchmark for comparison. I am keeping the gamesaves for each test and documenting the results. My time is limited and I have so far done 7 tests. If you like, I can do an abstract of what I have so far. Some interesting unrelated data about the game has come up. So please hold for now. Sorry I can't do this faster but a lot goes on in my life.

Chicory (talk) 12:15, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

@ xxGODLIKExx: An update. After several false starts, I have done 11 tests covering the effects of various elements used cause a "horny" group of students except for "lover" arrangements. I will be writing an abstract of what I have done so far. Some interesting surprises have come up which may or may not be already known. I will need to do another shorter series of tests that investigate various "lover" arrangements including the lover arrangement that is key to (for lack of a better name) Orgy Academy. The weekend is over so I will be back at work and have little time, but I will work on the abstract here and there and it will probably be up on this page within a week (plus or minus). The full write-up with gamesaves will be available later to download for the curious or those who wish to verify. --Chicory (talk) 23:54, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

@ xxGODLIKExx: Sorry for the delay. Illness, and an emergency trip out of the country have delayed me. Also it became apparent that several other tests were needed. The abstract will be posted this week. --Chicory (talk) 10:54, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

@ xxGODLIKExx: Here is the abstract for the first series of tests. The next set of tests would be with the Lover option active.

AA2 Test group 1: tests to achieve "Orgy" mode with No Lovers

Abstract of Part 1

The following is a short summation. Many details have been left out and will be available in a downloadable file with gamesaves once I organize my notes.

Purpose: We seek to answer the questions: 1. What variables cause spontaneous public sex? 2. Is there any difference between a simple low virtue situation with no lover attachments and a situation where every student is the lover of every other student? 3. Is there a difference between all students in a lover relationship with all other students and less inclusive lover relationships in the student group, such as a harem or random lover relationships?

Criteria/Goals for all tests: 1. 80% should join in with public H regularly. 2. Students should switch partners indiscriminately. 3. The full selection of positions should be available. 4. There should be no violence, accusations of cheating and no or little jealousy. 5. It should be sustainable for as long as the player wishes within time limits. 6. Students should consistently participate in a variety of social activities other than H.

Settings Part 1 tested for the best arrangement to meet the goals with a class that did not allow lover relationships. The starting conditions for each test were the same but different variables were added or subtracted to determine their effect against the goals.

Highlights of the settings for the basic or benchmark test are as follows: A 10 student class with one male and no teacher. The students were all virgins and did not have any previous experience with each other. All the traits were used in different students except for the romantic/passionate trait and the lewd/perverted trait, because these two traits would be tested. A random selection of personalities was used. Each test started with the same virgin unacquainted class. Each test went one week in game time. In Config: Pregnancy risk safe, Disable "Violent", "Abusive" and "Competitive" Actions. Full settings are included in the full write up.

Results of the tests for part 1 The goals were not achieved. The inability to keep all the positions active unless you are in a lover relationship, forces lewed characters to focus on a main partner or two, thus defeating the goal of easy public H with people frequently switching partners. Also the focus on H only tends to eliminate the social actions in the game.

The following data was determined about the following variables. 1. Low Virtue Simply making everyone low virtue does not bring about spontaneous public sex. 2. Romantic/Passionate trait and Lewd/Perverted trait given to everyone Good when coupled with either a. removing the traits that are contrary to the goals (see below). b. setting the Hate/Dislike modifiers at 0 in config. Otherwise they work contrary to the goals over the long term due to jealousy and focus on the favored partner. 3. Traits that are contrary to the goals removed from everyone. These are the traits of Violent, Scheming, Evil, Masochist, Exploitable, Competitive, Asexual, Singleminded, Jealous, Bad with Guys, Bad with Girls, Tsundere. This worked well but is unnecessary when Config is set with all Hate/Dislike modifiers set at 0. There is one exception: even with the Hate/Dislike modifiers set at 0 the singleminded/faithful trait should not be used 4. Highest social set for everyone Good when coupled with either a. removing the traits that are contrary to the goals or b. setting the Hate/Dislike modifiers at 0 in config. Otherwise it works contrary to the goals over the long term due to jealousy and focus on the favored partner. 5. Love/Like modifies set at 10 and Hate/Dislike modifiers set at 0 Best if only the Hate/dislike modifiers set at 0 are used and the Love/like modifiers are ignored. This tends to eliminate jealousy and negate the effects of evil and scheming traits. Using both tends to reduce promiscuity having students focus only on favored partner. Using either or both of these tends eliminate social interactions, but does allow some. This can be balanced by using all the traits except "singleminded" 6. Everyone in H-mood Completely focuses on H and removes all social interaction so it was decided not to use it 7. Everyone let's have sex Was seen as a distraction but on test, eliminating it made it harder to achieve the goals, so it was kept.

The game combination that is closest to reaching the goals is: 0. The settings of the benchmark test plus: 1. Everyone with Lewd/Perverted Trait, Passionate/Romantic Trait, and Highest Social 3. No one has the Singleminded Trait 4. The three Hate/Dislike modifiers in Config are checked and set at 0 --Chicory (talk) 20:44, 7 December 2014 (UTC)